Steve, my soulmate felt all those things even though he has Sun, Chiron and DML in 12th and Pluto is in 6th (opposition that DML which I hope doesn't mean I'll be the death of him). Anyway, I don't know if that's the Pluto since he has all those same things. Now I'm Sun conj Mars in 12th and although I had my fair share of things growing up, I didn't ever feel like that although I couldn't wait to get out of the place where I grew up.

Steven12 and amiablehermit, as a person with 12th house placements (Pluto being one of them), I can say that the both of you have said many things that ring true. This seems like it could be a slightly touchy subject, and this post is going to be pretty long, so please bear with me. I wanted to respond the minute I saw this topic posted, but my computer was acting up for the last couple of days. I should also mention that I have very limited knowledge of relocation charts (I've glanced at the technique, and how it's supposed to work, but I have no firm grasp on it, to really comment), so I'm just going to focus on the natal aspects.

First off, in my experience, the 12th house, to put it mildly, can be an extremely challenging house to deal with, and to correlate with some of Steven12's findings (and some of my own examinations of other people's charts), I have found a few things that can cause the native to experience the more...troubling...aspects of the 12th house:

(1): Some planets here (Moon, Saturn or Pluto) can indicate more troubling experiences

(2): Planets like the Sun, Venus or Jupiter don't seem to be as hard to deal with, unless it is the ruler of the chart (the ruling planet of the Rising Sign), and/or in hard aspect (especially to Saturn or Pluto, and/or if those afflicted planets are in 8th house.)

As for myself, I was pretty much born into chaos. From as far back as I can remember, I was dealing with something hellish. I don't remember a time when I *wasn't* going through something, and/or trying to get over something. I don't vividly remember much before my 5th year on this earth, but even then, I was already going through hellish experiences. Transiting Pluto crossed my ascendant at around 6 years old (went retrograde and back into the 12th, cusping the first by 1 degree or so, for about 2 years) and one of the things I'll willingly share was my mom, my grandmother and my aunt waking up me, and my younger sister in the middle of a cold November night, and screaming frantically to get us all out of our house, as it was set on fire by a crackhead my mother knew. We all stood outside, freezing, without much clothing, as we waited for the firemen to show up, and to find a place to stay. As I said, I was already going through...stuff...but somehow, that one hellish experience did something to me. (My aunt said that this experience changed something in me - in small ways for the worse, but in much larger ways, for the better. I know *full* well what she's talking about, I just don't want to get too much into detail.) And from there, we found another place to live: that's another story, and not too much brighter in content either...in many ways, it was a much worse experience. Indeed, throughout much of this time (and subsequent years), I developed poignant attachments (friends, girlfriends, potential girlfriends, etc), and then had to deal with not seeing them (either because I moved somewhere else, or they moved somewhere else, or because of school changes, etc, etc.)

But, nevermind all that. To correlate with what amiable hermit was saying, somehow I always found something to keep me afloat....from drowning totally.., and therin lies just a 'pinch' of the beauty of the 12th house; some things get compromised, yet other things seem to be heightened (psychologically speaking?) This is a *truly* difficult house to talk about, because it's effects are more likely to be felt from a peripheral, so it can never be quite easily communicated in a logical sense. So, no matter how much I try to explain my findings about the 12th house, I won't get anywhere near communicating logically what I actually *feel* it to be. The sum is much greater than it's parts.

I think that not too many people here care for, or want to experience (nor can they understand) the actual benefits the 12th house can bring - I believe it to be the most evolutionary, and by the same token, inconspicuous (and paradoxical) house in the system, and let's face it: not many people here on this earth care about evolving too much (at least not the way they think they do.) It's all about instant gratification, "the quick fix" if you will. And I can understand this; I am in no way criticizing, or condescending to, the general public for that (I could go into much further detail of what I mean, but I won't.) I believe the 12th house has a high factor of self-abnegation (at least it seems that way on the surface), and again, not too many people are going to have an easy time dealing with that. But, on the other hand - and this may be, for all intents and purposes, the gist, lesson, and greatest gift of all - there is also a sense of "liberation"... I used to hear that word *all* the time, and I never understood what it meant in relation to the 12th house (especially considering it's typically insular associations), but I SWEAR to almighty god I understand it now, and it's ABSOLUTELY true! But, the biggest challenge I believe, is that with all of this, comes a sense of isolation; the average person will not be able to understand or comprehend this gift (onlookers, particularly), and as a result, there may be a sense of loneliness and alienation (which, in some cases, will lead the subject to the more darker pitfalls of the 12th house...I need not mention them.)

I've been through a *hell* of a lot of shit in my 27 years thus far - stuff that would cause the average person to be admitted to the loony bin, in prison for a life sentence, or an early grave {knocking on wood as I type this, I sincerely hope that I continue to avoid those ordeals}. Can I say it's all really bad? Can I also say that I would (or wouldn't) be the person who I am today, or would I be on my way to my destination if it were not for my experiences? I can't really give a short, easy (or definite) answer. (I should also say, particularly with Pluto, I pretty much end up with *exactly* what I've always wanted since I was a child, but it just happens in a real twisted, and inconspicous sorta way - pretty much paraphrasing an earlier quote Steven12 came up with some time ago, "dreams come true, but so do the nightmares.", though for me personally, it's "nightmares seem to happen, but then your wildest dreams come true out of all of it.") It's so 12th house, it's not even funny.

I'll close this on a more lucid note (well, I'll try, but I think the attempt will not be too successful). My closest friend as of current is a Sagittarius Sun (cusp Scorpio), Libra Moon (conjunct Pluto), and a Venus in Scorpio. He has Virgo Rising, and Saturn in the 12th house (conjunct the Ascendant in a 6 degree orb.) When I met him in high school, I could sense...something... about him...like we had quite a bit in common, had similar past experiences, and what-not. This was before we even spoke to one-another. Of course, when we finally did speak, we hit it off, and we became pretty close. After the school year ended, we kinda lost touch. We would run into each other every other "now-and-then," and it wasn't until 6 or 7 years ago, when we finally started hanging out, and being in each-others' lives on a regular basis. One of the things I always used to envy about him (and I pretty much sensed it in him, just by looking at him, the first time I glanced it him all those years ago), was the sense of...um...liberation in him. Eventually, I found out that he too, has had to deal with horrific things in his past, but, somehow, he always ended up landing on his feet. I always had the feeling that no matter what, he was always going to be fine. Right now he's going through his first Saturn Return, and I'm happy to say that many things in his life are indeed changing - he's had a wonderful relationship with his girlfriend for 5 years now, and it only seems to be getting better. It makes me feel so great that things are going well for him. He truly deserves it.

Amiablehermit, what an interesting placement. Jupiter in 12th offers miraculous protection from physical harm, which may have offset a lot of your 12th house Pluto injuries. However, I'm sure the other destructions could be well documented in your life. Those are the ones I'm concerned about for this young lady... she's already had her share. Some of us, including me, reach a point where these destructions were so severe that there was no learning going on despite trying in earnest. That's where my life was... at age 45 I had reached complete exhaustion. Some sort of stability had show up, and soon, because I was starting to think that the next injury would be fatal. It took me four years to recover from my back injury, during which time I was disabled. After that, I lost everything. My friends and acquaintances told me that I had become toxic and hypervigilant, but it was not because of imagined events. The 12th houses are still in the background and always will be, but relocated, they're subdued... and I'm making BIG progress, learning more about others, helping them to grow, and experiencing life at a much deeper level instead of getting depleted just trying to survive. I was a homeless person at one point in 1991, and it just brought derision against me, and damaged me uselessly. I just cannot feel any gratefulness for the experience. Call me a whiner, but if the central lesson of the 12th house is sorrow, then I've got a Doctorate. That plateau has been reached, the sorrow has left a permanent effect on me.

LOL. Quite right.

Amiable, the Mother/Daughter move is not going to happen. The Mother's chart is significanly good here but she is aware of it. The daughter's chart wasn't bad except for the 12th Pluto deal. However, the daughter is now expecting a baby, and the grandmother-to-be will likely stay on the Mainland in her secure job and house. Neither will relocate. The daughter will eventually divorce, I'd wager on it.

Scasco came up with an epiphany regarding my own 12th House Pluto that makes mega-sense. He will reply to my response on his "12th House Article" topic when he is ready. Apparently, I have an even more severely afflicted Pluto than was previously apparent, that is tied into the 8th house of death. There is an amplifying effect for Mars Square Pluto/Aries ruler of 8th. For years I had thought that other 12th Pluto people had the same level of problematic intensity. This is wrong, of course; which I pointed out with your Jupiter conjunction.

The things were learn here answer many questions that otherwise would have been hidden. All of this came about during the Saturn/Uranus opposition we're all going through together, the same one that seems to be turning the world on its head right now.

Stacy, Pluto is exalted in Scorpio, because Scorpio is ruled by Pluto! However, that 12th house thing....obviously kicked in and kicked you, too. It's good to know that you have used "The Phoenix Bird" rebirthing to your advantage. How long the rebirths will proceed is a mystery to be solved. I encourage you to consult more than a few astrologers to get their take on it. You are young and have time left in life to have a real relationship. Let it be known that "being ready" may take an entire lifetime of experiences that lead to strong revelations. Your Saturn return will shuffle the deck and a relationship may or may not be in store in a few years. Many 12th Housers are here to go it alone, hence my suggestion to have readings done. If they are conflicting, discount those readers who are less sharp about their information.

Absolutely. I don't even use my Northeastern USA chart anymore. It doesn't apply anymore, though once in awhile there is an "echo" that happens.

Hah hah, it doesnt change anything on the chart being in a different state, but then I'm only a few hundred miles south (500-600).