That's how I look at life sometimes too, like "little souvenirs stored in my mind". I've told my best friend when we're both feeling particularly nihilistic that that's all life is, that no matter what you do, how good a time you may have at one time or another, it's just going to end up being an image in your mind is all that's left, as if it may as well have never even happened to beging with. I've never really thought it might have anything to do with having Saturn in the 12th House before now, but I suppose it may have an influence. Saturn can be a rather grim planet after all. Maybe that's why I seemed to have had a rather precocious understanding of death from as early as I can remember.

it's frustration, mostly. i feel like everything i try to accomplish is met with extreme resistance, so it's really hard to know where to focus my energy. everything feels so difficult that i don't know what will or even can work out.

i forgot to say that my answer is for bella rose.
irina

i'm not sure that it's a question of being held responsible for past life occurrences, but rather, that our course in this life begins where the last one left us. I believe that Cayce suggested that we are spared from past life memories precisely so that we won't be distracted by a sense of need too correct them. Instead, to the extent that our current lives are a manefestation of that continuum, we will continue to work on that karma with our egos free from any burden of guilt that our that might otherwise ensnare us in a past that we are powerless to revise. Karma is satisfied by the circumstances that we are born into, without imposing any attachment to consciousness of the particular events that created it. Death mercifully lowers a veil that enables us to be born innocent of "our" past deeds --and karma merely ensures that we may continue to address and resolve those issues, not with a clear slate, but with an unfettered consciousness of life's possibilities.

Let me butt into this thread for a moment and express some views on Karma.

Karma is an Eastern concept. The Eastern concept being that we are revolving endlessly in a circle of Samsara, endless lifetimes in one of the four realms and the only way out is Liberation.

Without this view it is difficult to understand Karma as a Westerner.

Karma literally means "action" in Sanskrit. It's a law like the law of gravity. All of your actions generate either good, bad or neutral Karma. And since we are not masters of Karma, we do not know when we'll see the ripening of any of these types of Karma. If your intentions are good then good actions may follow and this generates positive Karma, not only for you but for others also.

With the idea of reincarnation comes the idea that our minds or consciousness or souls or spark or what have you (Buddhism we believe it is the mind) go on when our bodies expire and continue wandering endlessly through the animal, insect, human, hell, whatever realms until we seek and pursue liberation. The forces of our Krma are so great that when we finally lose this body it's believed we are blown about by the forces of our previous Karma and that determines what new body you'll take.

As a Westerner, if you haven't been raised in a culture or even by parents with these beliefs it's hard to conceptualize why you should have so much Karma to deal with coming into this life. This makes sense, because in general our culture believes we have just this body and where we go when we die is up for debate depending on our religions (Heaven? Hell? Purgatory? Another planet?). Thus if you don't believe what Easterners believe, it's not neccessary to accept the concept of Karma. In Christianiaty and Judiasm, good deeds and helping others are encouraged as part of being a decent human being, and everyone has their own row to hoe. Where we end up after death is not determined by a completely objective force of the Cosmos, but by a caring Higher Power, Creator, G-d etc.

I don't feel it's neccessary to completely embrace another foreign culture in order to practice ancient sciences like astrology. However here in the West we have begun embracing only bits and pieces of foreign cultures and trying to conceptualize elements of their religions/culture without the understanding we need to put it into context.

Back when I was heavily into the occult, I had friends who wrote books and lectured (Lectured!!) on using some of these elements in a personal magical practice without ever having taken a single initiation with a qualified Guru or even participating in age-old ceremonies of the East which they were taking elements of and selling to the Western populace completely out-of-context. Then I have Native American friends who have to watch this type of behavior constantly from clueless white ppl. But mostly I see ppl feeling guilty and confused for not understanding concepts we've tended to throw around as pop terms in the West. There are over 26 volumes just on Karma which have not even been translated from the Tibetan yet. I only grasp the basic concepts because I've been studying with a qualified, recognized teacher for the past 11 yrs. and even I only have a rudimentary understanding. I don't really know what happens when we die because no one has come back to to tell us. I just wanted to sharte these thoughts with you, Bella Rose, and with others, hopefully this helps a little.

It might be easier for you to understand past lives if you look at it this way. On a material or "earthly" level, we are defined as individual bodies with individual paths and consciousness. However, spiritually, we all come from the same soup... like "Rays of Light".

Alright, this is an off the cuff analogy, and I'm not even sure it will work, but here it goes... Think of filling an ice cube tray. All the water comes from one tap, but is compartmentalized into different sections. Each section being now defined by their relationships with one another... which cubes are closer to the coldest point in the freezer, and so forth, (albeit on an insignificant scale for the ice makers purpose) plays a role within its own context. Our souls are kind of like the water separated into sections.

Later, the ice cubes are dropped into several different drinks. Each cube experiences its own journey. Some may have dropped into an ice coffee, and melted quickly, while others could be placed into cold drinks. Now let's say the ice coffee is dumped into the sink, while the cold drinks are either consumed or placed back in the freezer for later consumption.

The point is, each ice cube will have a different destiny, however they all return to a state of water at some point, despite going through many transformations that we may not define as an ice cube. Some portions of the water used to produce the ice cubes will evaporate, while others are consumed and released, but the end result is that water always returns in some form to our atmosphere, only to be recycled as a water from our tap and placed back into the ice cube tray.

Your past life is just that... a former manifestation of that energy, or energy in separated time and space. We tend to define our souls in terms of our material selves, (espceially Westerners). This is why it is often difficult to perceive this abstraction.

Really, all of our souls are connected as one, yet because they do not cover every viewpoint independently, they are rendered imperfect without one another. In Catholicism, we define this as "falling from grace" and individuals therefore are "sinners", simply meaning doing actions that are out of the divine. No one person is exempt from making mistakes, therefore we all should take responsibility for all imperfections, because we all affect one another's outcomes, or "Karma". This holds true of others who are present in our own time and space, as well as "past lives".

All in all, don't look at it as, "I shouldn't be responsible for the mistakes made in my past life" but instead say to yourself, "I am blessed for having this opportunity to continue evolving, as the greatest things warrent more than one lifetime to achieve".

That's my two and half cents.

a very pertinent point & observation.brilliant!

I haved loved reading all this dialog!
I am an astrologer by inheritance, as both of my parents are astrologers.
I had a "professional" reading by Caroline Casey a few years back, ,and she had some interesting things to say to me about my about Saturn in the 12th. She said the only time she ever really brings up past lives is when a person has a strong 12th house.
Saturn is a strong placement there.
She mentioned the possibility of having been an authority figure in a past life. Perhaps in a mystery school venue.
Teacher of dreams, magic or art. I thought that was really beautiful. It put a nice spin on an otherwise troublesome placement.
She also mentioned having a "strong internal beat". Like you say, being able to stand up, and stay unflustered in "unique situations", that would probably make other people nervous.
I did a reading a few years ago for a woman who had moon/mars conjunction in the 12th. I mentioned the possibility of having some karma to work out with mother/lover energies. The woman turned totally pale, and her jaw dropped open. After she scraped her jaw off the floor she told me that her (ex)husband had an affair with her mother!!
I no longer under estimate the karmic link of the 12th house.
I think this is a really valuable thread and we should keep it going as long as possible.
I have 12th Saturn in Taurus opposing 6th Neptune in scorpio.
Saturn trines my venus/ pluto (wide) conjunction in the 5th.
I am a stable intense madwoman. : )

Hello, C....there is Scorpio Rising, so Pluto can be said to be ruling the chart. There is an interest in psychology, research, the "underground," the hidden, the taboo. The 12th house is full, so here is a person who can spend long hours working at research and uncovering meaning personally and professionally, and perhaps spiritually.

I don't know why, but this chart reminds me of the fictional character of Sir Adam Sinclair, in the book "The Adept" by Katherine Kurtz, Deborah Turner Harris...only a bit more "jovial" of a character, with Jupiter on the Ascendant. Sir Adam Sinclair was a physician (psychiatrist), an unadvertised assistant to the police in cases involving the occult, and an Adept, an heir a family of Knights Templar.

Most elevated plant is the Moon in its own sign in the 9th House, giving you strong ability passed down through the Mother's line. The Father's line also is important, the Sun at the cusp of the 4th House is a powerful indicator of the importance of an Ancient Line. You have lots to learn, and yet you have inherited the brains, the intuition, and the physical ability to learn it. Perhaps you are here to bring your family's wisdom and knowledge into the present time You can also be a Teacher of others, and a catalyst for Healing. Whatever you study, you will explore deeply. You are truly on the path of Wisdom and Universal Love.

With the cusp of the 10th House in Leo, you may be a performer of some kind. Your art may be transformative and cutting edge....and yet may hark back to the roots somehow. You have a great awareness that comes from not being afraid to step out of conventional roles. Yet, you can take a conventional role and transform it creatively. I'm thinking of healing that comes through art, theater, dance, music, etc. But it must always have a connection to life and the true condition of people in this world.

The Mars/Saturn/Pluto energy in Libra in the 12th House is about Balance, Harmony, Justice, and Relativity. Beauty is the key. You need an outlet for your physical energy and you deserve one! At least one! Work out until you feel a "shift" inside. The Moon/Venus opposition will give you an awareness of the way people relate to each other, even in the everyday workaday world. Again, you will be looking for a "shift" which can occur when you relate to people in a less emotional, less judgmental way (including yourself!).

There is a great little book called "Love Is Letting Go of Fear" by Gerald G. Jampolsky. It has helped me be less judgemental and resolve many of my relationship issues. I recommend it highly! Dr. Jampolsky teaches "attitudinal healing," which can shift all the paradigms!
www.attitudinalhealing.org/

Hey Rachel,
I also have Saturn in the 12th in Leo, but not retrograde. I totally understand the shape shifting thing, hence my name. I feel that I am always shifting into different aspects of myself and burning things down only to rebuild them. I often have an outlook that unfortunately makes me perceive my reality as a " this is not my beautiful life" kind of thing and then I think..." burn it all to the ground, time to get back to the basics". I reconnect with my spirituality by taking a day during the week, usually Sundays and going for long hikes and reconnecting with mother nature. I call it " back to the mother day", although it should probably be "back to the mothership day". I also am constantly changing my appearance and throughout the years if you compared photos some of them don't even look like me at all, it's very strange. I was told once I would make a great spy because I could change the way I looked so drastically. I never thought this type of shifting was a 12th house thing and your insight relating to have Leo in the 12th in Saturn makes a lot of sense to me.

Hi, Rachel....I really relate to what you have written about Saturn in the 12th. One of my dearest friends has his Sun in Leo in the 12th House, and he periodically goes on long hikes in the wilderness.....he says he needs to do this to stay sane. He is also a whitewater guide and takes other people through treacherous waters. He has attended the Native American Sun Dances and finds them helpful...he also does sweat lodge rituals and gets a lot out of them. He likes to "disappear" from time to time....if you want to be his friend, you just have to understand. I do.

Although it is difficult sometimes, I am a Solitary. I do join with others, but my most spiritual times are times spent alone, with Nature, or just with my writing, art, dance. This Internet thing is good because it is like an "in between" place...I am still solitary, but I can reach out and interact with others. It really helps! :-)

As someone who has Natal Saturn in the 12th, I have a past life memory of being in Prison. In that time, I had lead a life of adventure and drama. I needed that solitude to develop my Inner Self....and I did! I learned to go on Spirit Journeys while in the body....and I learned the reality of the spiritual dimension. That we are all connected on some inner level anyway! When I read the book "Narcissus and Goldmund" by Herman Hesse, it really hit home for me. It was about 2 friends...one who roamed the world, learning and experiencing life....the other lived solitarily, in a monastery. They both approached Wisdom from different sides....and came together at the end....

Sometimes im ok, but most times its cos i feel cut off from the rest of the world.

I found this Karmic site that has everything by house and planet. Here's what it says about 12th house:

Sun in House 12

The Sun in the 12th House indicates that consciousness is being opened out by the experience of functioning in the world with a perspective which gives no great awareness of self as a separate being. The vibration in this area of the horoscope weakens the dualism inherent in perception of human kind. A 12th House child does not readily distinguish between self and other, mine and thine.

In their childhoods, 12th House people are not encouraged to think of them­selves as individuals. The circumstances responsible for this are numerous and, on the surface at least, very different in nature. This placement is common in the charts of children brought up in orphanages, put up for adoption, or required to spend long periods in hospital. This placement may be found in the charts of children sent away to boarding schools, no matter how exclusive and no matter how loving the parents, in the charts of children born onto large families where clothes and toys are common property and the directed attention of the parents a rare commodity, and in the chart of an only child smothered by a parents love and concern.

In every case the child’s individuality is overlooked. Within the home and with­in the institutions, he is treated the same as everyone else and is not encouraged to recognised what makes him distinctive. Where the parent is smothering he exists for the needs of the parent, not in his own right. The early years of a person with the Sun in H12 tend not to be easy and are frequently unhappy. A person with this placement is prone to bullying. Other children detect his inability to stand up for himself and are likely to take his natural givingness as evidence of the need to buy friendship. Through out his life a H12 person runs the risk of being bullied, exploited and misunderstood by people who as unnerved by his lack of self-interest, as they are contemptuous.

By the time they reach early adulthood, many H12 men have cultivated a tough or flamboyant image.

In his dealings with the world a 12th House person tends to be handicapped by his lack of self-interest and competitiveness. Unless he adopts these qualities along with a worldly veneer - and some Ascendant signs, notably Capricorn and Scorpio, make this more likely than others - there is a tempta­tion to drift or retreat into drink and drugs because he can see no purpose to the struggle. In terms of spiritual development, however, a person with this placement of the Sun is greatly advantaged by a perspective, which sees unity rather than separation. A 12th House person tends not to think in terms of Heaven and Earth, rather he is aware of God’s imminence. It is characteristic of experience in the House of Pisces that for what is denied on the physical plane there is compensation on the spiritual. Psychic, particularly clairvoyant powers are often conferred by this placement of the Sun There appears to be no one profession which attracts 12th House people more than any other. They are found in all walks of life and fame is by no means denied them. As artists they tend to be concerned with the universally applicable. It is notable that 12th House celebrities are frequently seen as embodying the spirit of a movement or they become the figurehead of a trend or fashion.

This placement of the Sun is often found with the Moon in one of the houses of Relative consciousness, indicating that the soul, having learned about self and other is now learning that the dualship perspective can be trans­cended. It may be that the Sun in H12 indicates the completion of a cycle of soul development.

Mercury

Mercury in the 12th House with the Sun reinforces the impartial perspective and although it increases the difficulty a person experiences in defining and promoting his own interests, it enhances his capacity for spiritual understanding. When Mercury is in H12 and the Sun in H1 a person operates from an understan­ding that the whole is the sum of its parts: people with this combination tend to develop and project themselves with a sense that in doing so they are making a contribution to something more significant than themselves alone.

With Mercury in H12 and the Sun in H11 a person is likely to approach communal endeavour with a greater compassion and awareness of the emotional level than is normally associated with the house of Aquarius. A person with this combination is also likely to speak through the group, using it as a medium for his views and ideas. When Mercury is in H12 with the Sun in any placement a person is not encouraged in childhood to express his opinions or preferences and tends to have difficulty in his adult years in speaking out.

When Mercury in H12 is afflicted by Mars, Saturn or Uranus then there may be a physiological reason for problems in communication

Venus

Venus in the 12th House confers the ability to love selflessly and unconditionally. In their childhoods, people with this placement of Venus are often made to feel that others more needy have first call on the parents’ love and time. Although it may indicate a loveless childhood, it may also show up in the charts of people who grew up in a warm environment but one in which there was no scope to be demanding, often because a sibling needed special attention. It may also indicate ‘smother love'.

In their adult years people with Venus in H12 expect little back from others and their relationships are frequently characterised by imbalance in the matter of loving and giving. Although they may have a vision of the ideal relationship in which there is reciprocity, it is notable that many people with Venus in H12 feel stifled and trapped when they are made the focus of another's affections. They know true fulfillment when they are able to merge with a higher level of consciousness.

Mars

When Mars is in the 12th House the assertive and self-directing energy of the planet is turned inwards. A person with this placement frequently becomes a seeker of spiritual truth, working hard to transcend the limitations of the ego perspective. In his dealings with the world, however, he expe­riences considerable difficulty in acting in support of his own interests and is usually better equipped to work as one of a team rather than facing competative situations alone. Mars in H12 is not an uncommon placement for sportsmen who feel uncertain about the desirability of expressing assertiveness off the pitch or sports field.

People with Mars in H12 frequently have a parent who is either afraid of displays or wilfulness and anger or has a dominating will. Either way the child is discouraged from being assertive or self-directing. This place­ment is often found in charts with the Moon in Aries or 1st House, Leo or H5, indicating other lifetimes have given the soul experience of self-assertiveness and outer-directed behaviour. In the current lifetime a new approach is required.

Jupiter

Jupiter in the 12th House confers a great love of solitude and open spaces. People with this placement require a lot of quiet and time alone. In solitude, Jupiter in H12, especially if it is retrograde, can pick up the still, small voice. People with Jupiter in the House of Pisces rarely experience loneliness and possess great spiritual resources. In childhood they are likely to be solitary and usually learn to keep their spiritual understanding and any religious beliefs this might lend itself to, a private matter. The parents no matter how understanding, rarely share the child’s convictions and may have a view of life, which is almost exclu­sively materialistic.

Saturn

With Saturn in the 12th House a person tends to be haunted by the spectre of existentialism, the fear that existence is random and meaningless. Yet this placement is found in the charts of some of the most renowned spiritual luminaries. In H12, as in any other, Saturn rewards effort. People with this placement who strive to find a meaning for existence may come to great truths.

It is possible that people with Saturn in H12 are dealing with more than individual Karma, and in working through their own fear and negativity they are helping to transmute the Karma of Mankind. For such a task the rewards are commensurate but there may be years of doubt, darkness and depression before they are experienced.

People with Saturn in H12 are likely to have a parent who is a depressive or has a fearful, defeatist view of life. If not actively over-protected, the child is taught by example that existence is an intrinsically negative experience. Safety is sought in structure, both literally and metaphorically: there is a tendency to hold onto scientific truths and admit little that is not empirically provable. Many find talk of the ‘life beyond’ unnerving. Agoraphobia is also a common condition amongst people with Saturn in H12.

Uranus

Uranus With Uranus in the 12th House there is a developmental need to build a sense of indi­viduality which is not dependent upon external forms of distinctiveness or shows of non-conformity.

People with this placement of Uranus tend to be born into families where there is a strong sense of propriety and an emphasis placed on conduct and appearances. Any form of exhibitionism is actively discouraged in their childhoods.

People with this placement tend to grow up considering themselves to be ‘ordinary’. They have, however, great potential to develop spiritually by following their own insights and intuition rather than an established path. They have access to a vast reservoir of energy and inspiration from the planes beyond the physical, if they can only become aware of this. The difficulty with this placement, if Uranus in H12 is unsupported by other outer planets, is that, a person’s sense of being ’nothing exceptional’ comes between him and his will to explore a path which may take him away from orthodoxy, and he may be unable to approve the development of his own psychic potential.

Neptune

Neptune in the 12th House gives a person access to limitless grace in the form of ability to access understanding, which is possible, only when the partial view has been transcended. This placement may also confer considerable psychic ability, particularly in the form of clairvoyance.

As with Uranus in H12, however, a person needs to know he has this potential and put himself in a position where it can be developed, or he may have no conception of what is available to him.

People with Neptune in H12 are frequently born to parents who pride themselves on their practical sense and realism. The child is usually brought up to ‘look after number one’. From this bleak and unappealing world, the child with Neptune in H12 tends to retreat into a private realm of fantasy. The aspects made by Neptune to the inner planets will determine the extent to which the fantasies can be translated into a form which others can share or whether they remain locked away in a person’s mind. Regardless of whether a person with Neptune in H12 is able to channel its influence into artistic or literary form, he will in his daily life, be capable of acts of the most extra-ordinary selflessness. They may be sporadic and he may be dis­inclined to divulge his own motives but such acts are usually prompted by compassion for a person or animal in distress. The cost to himself whether reckoned in time, effort or cash, is often considerable. Secretiveness, bordering on the obsessive, is common with Neptune in its own House and there may be a tendency to hide behind images and aliases.

Pluto

With Pluto in the 12th House consciousness is opening up to a power which can 'will into being'. Pluto in H12 has access to the Creator’s power and the purposes to which he will use it will reflect his level of development: he can manifest what he lusts after or he can will into being what he knows to be of benefit to mankind. For whatever he brings into being he will be held directly responsible.

A person with this placement of Pluto frequently knows much cruelty and abuse in childhood, be it of a physical, emotional or mental kind, and the perpetrators are usually the parents or guardians who have power over the child by virtue of their custodial role. From them the child has little opportunity to escape at the physical level and in order to get away he forces open a shutter in the mind which gives him access to enormous psychic power.

It is the law of the 12th House that for what is denied at the physical level is compensated at the immaterial.

The power of a person with Pluto in H12 is most readily evidenced by their often unconscious use of what has become known in New Age circles as Creative Visualisation: if he can hold an image or picture an outcome and give it his emotional energy he can bring it into being.

When used consciously, Pluto in H12 gives a person great charisma and the ability to make others into the agents of the outworking of his will. The responsibilities of this are enormous and the karma incurred through the use of the power conferred by Pluto in H12 is unlikely to be burned off in the course of a single lifetime. A person with this placement, if he is to work consciously with his powers, needs to be able to recognise and resist the voice of his desire nature.

Moon

The Moon in the 12th House is an indication that in other incarnations the emotions have been evaded and left unresolved. The sign of the Moon will reveal the qualities, which were emphasised to the detriment of the emotional level. If the Moon occupies a water sign this suggests that the emotional reactions were not owned.

People with the Moon in H12 tend to be born into families where emotional considerations are played down, if not ignored outright, in the name of expediency or practical sense. The parents, most significantly the mother, may be afraid of examining their emotions, in case by doing so; they wrench the lid off Pandora’s box. In such a situation, the domestic atmosphere tends to be charged with unacknowledged and unresolved emotion. The child is taught by example that his feelings are to be ignored and goes on the run from them, frequently by concentrating on the area of life indicated by the house position of his Sun.

This placement may also be found in the charts of children who do not know their natural mothers and those who have experienced little nurturance from them owing to some incapacity, which makes the child the effective guardian of the parent. It is also common in children of mixed parentage who have no clear sense of cultural identity.

Until his natal Moon in H12 is stirred up by a stressful transit or progession involving the outer planets, a person with this placement may function very ably despite the mood swings, sometimes quite severe, which are a characteristic and which a person usually professes not to understand or be able to control. Stressful transits and progressions, however, especially from Uranus and Pluto, release all manner of acknowledged fears and complexes and put a person under considerable pressure which frequently affects his health. Schizophrenic breakdowns and psychotic episodes are not uncommon when a person with Moon in H12 continues to disown what is being dis­charged from his unconscious. At such a time, never having developed an 'emotional identity' he may also be subject to invasion from the emotional energies of others.

These breakdowns, be they of the mind or body, usually last only for the duration of the transit or progression and then a person is able to function as before. He then has to decide whether to heed the warning he has received and attempt to solve the enigma of his own emotional nature or go back on the run from it.

AUTHOR’S NOTE: The 12th House is without doubt the house least readily under­stood by students of astrology, probably because it is the subject of some of the least lucid commentary by writers on astrology. Western astrologers, pre-Jung, tended to present the 12th House as the black hole of the horoscope: the place where planetary energies disappeared to re-emerge in the form of some dementia or incapacity. There was much talk of hidden enemies, large animals, institu­tions and bondage. Such dedications are valid and from the point of view of horary astrology extremely useful. For the purposes of natal astrology, however, they are not adequate.

Although the post Jungian psychologist astrologers have added greatly to our understanding of the 12th House their liberal use of the term the Unconscious has tended to erode the distinction between the 12th and 4th Houses.

The Collective Unconscious is accessed through the 4th House. It is all that has been in the consciousness of mankind. The 12th House is the house of Universal Consciousness. What is accessible through this house has not passed through the filter of mankind’s dualistic, ego-centred perspec­tives. It is the gateway to all possibility, and to Truth, which is apprehend able only when the partial view has been transcended.

In the Tarot Neptune is represented by The Hanged Man: from the point of view of the world he is seeing things upside down. So it is with H12, the House of Neptune, where planetary energies are not for use on the physical plane or for personal gain. From the point of view of person centred astrology, the 12th House, which inverts the energies, is inside out and the planets, which occupy it, are debilitated. If person centred astrology is put in the service of spiritual advancement, however, and each life in the service of something larger than itself, then the 12th House, the area of the horoscope where the dualistic distortion is weakest, becomes a house of enormous opportunity.

As stated in the text, the law of the 12th House is: that for all that is denied at the physical level there is compensation at the immaterial. Pluto, when operating through H12, can manifest circumstances in which there is terrible suffering in childhood. As Pluto approaches the last degrees of Scorpio, its own sign, and the sign of power and sexuality, the sexual abuse of children gives every appearance of reaching epidemic proportions. One of the things we can do for these children and for mankind is show them how to claim their spiritual compensation.

(This is from the DK Foundation)

Chiron in the Twelfth House
+As always, Chiron shows where we can do more for others than ourselves. A 12th house Chiron may compulsively try to take care of the poor the sick, and the unfortunate while neglecting their own needs and those of their own family. Conversely, there may be malingering and the person with this placement may themselves always seem in "need" because of one (frequently self-caused) "problem" after another. This placement tends to make a person feel tired and fatigued. If you have this one, be sure to get plenty of rest.

!Chiron is associated with the emotional wounds we receive early on in our lives. The sign Chiron is in will dominate but the house placing will show in which area the personality is motivated and into which they will put their efforts. In the twelfth house, it may indicate nervous tension, perhaps picked up from a close family member. You probably have psychic, empathic and healing abilities. Don't keep shutting yourself off from people - they need your unique abilities. Help others by learning to use these 'gifts' - it will give great, personal benefit but you will need to be emotionally strong and mature.

(Chiron from Cafe Astrology)

Basically all that in your 12th house means you have a very powerful stellium going on there unless it's very wide and even then you'd have to have one if not two stelliums with that many planets. Stelliums increase the effects of all of them on the house and the sign its in. But 12th house people usually feel more connected to the universe than the earth which some take to mean that the soul is going through it's final karmic trips. So if you look at it that way, maybe this is your last time to experience everything on this plane before you are fully freed to go to the next. Either your taking the crash course or this is what we all have to look forward to when we get to that stage. Just keep it all in a cosmic perspective and don't worry so much about the earthly one.

You can try it out on Astro.com.

Time zones can't be set, because local times vary so much from year to year and locality. Enter your birth data for the new location at the new location's local time. You'll have to doublecheck the time because it's easy to get wrong. The only way to do that is to match up the Greenwich Mean Time (same as Universal time) on the new location with the GMT on your Natal chart. The planets' rising locations are not perfect, they're all over the place, too.

When you make up a relocated chart, make sure to put the location next to your name so you know WHERE.

Oh, and generally speaking, houses change in MOST cases in about two time zones. My cursed 12th house is three wide, though. My 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th houses are in Asia and about one hour wide. Actually, they can vary a lot!

Oops! I lied. Shouldn't have looked in a hurry. It moved me further into Scorpio Rising. So that is true. I did become more Scorpio!

I find just relocation to New mexico changes the house placements for much of my chart, rising stays the same though (Libra) Both moon and pluto (virgo) move over to the 11th house and uranus stays put. Saturn (Taurus) moves from 8th house over to 7th house.

I did live in New Mexico for a short time some years ago, beautiful landscape.

This is kind of neat, now I can check some of the various places I've have lived or visited...

Thanks for the astro.com reminder Zanne.

Italy as opposed to Florida should have moved them well out of the 12th house.

Threads come and go, die and are reborn, sometimes as totally new threads. If you want it to go on, post something more about it. Otherwise, let it go and come back as another thread sometime.

Perhaps you can share your feelings through music......

I admire you for the work you've done thus far. I have Saturn in the 12th, and I know any pain I experience I have chosen for my own learning. Once you LEARN, the pain is gone and is replaced by the joy of KNOWING and DOING.

Remember, you have Jupiter in the 12th to help you!

Transcending polarity (or duality) means getting away from an "either/or" mindset. It's about seeing things from an Eagle's point-of-view and rising above it. Perhaps through music, or spirituality, or art, or taking care of those who need taken care of.

www.chinapage.com/zen/koan1.html

from the above:

"A monk asked Tozan, "How can we escape the cold and heat?" Tozan replied, "Why not go where there is no cold and heat?" "Is there such a place?" the monk asked. Tozan commented, "When cold, be thoroughly cold; when hot, be hot through and through."

For more about this, see the book:

___Love Is Letting Go of Fear__
by Gerald G. Jampolsky

"I do meditate a lot (mercury in Scorpio?) and am trying to find answers through it but it's like I want to have both worlds (material and spiritual). The stuff about transcending polarity in my life, I don't think I understand that but it would be sure helpful if you could show me how. If other people also meditate, give me a holler. "

Hi Prashanta. I have Mercury conjunct yours in Scorpio (conjunct Neptune) in the 12th, and I'm a lousy meditator. I did the transcendental meditation course ten years ago, and never got into it, and then seven years ago did the Goenka ten-day Vipassana course for the first time, which I found very difficult (which is the case for most people!). I have done it several times since. It affects me deeply (I feel) at an unconscious level, but it has never risen into the conscious light of day. (The experience of 'getting it' eludes me.) I very seldom practise at home, so wonder if greater commitment, or another technique (or the same technique presented differently) would not be the solution. Perhaps your facility with meditation comes from your 12th house Jupiter (and Saturn?). (And your transiting Saturn has probably entered the 12th and is coming up for its return.)

Approaching these things consciously, as you are, seems to me the way to go. Maybe Mars exalted in Capricorn (the only planet in earth) is a good outlet for you in the communicative 3rd house? The chart seems very independent with all the planets in the East and the Sun in Sagittarius, and maybe playing 'life the game' instead of immersing oneself in (and abandoning oneself to) social interaction could be liberating.

"I am really confused because I have conflicting traits in my personality. Sometimes I am one of the shyest guys you can meet and other times I am so bold and confident. Sometimes I fight for my ground so fearlessly but most of the time I really do not care enough about things to fight for them. People tend to think I am weak and try to dominate me though they don't know what is in store for them until they push too hard :)"

I was/am much the same ;-)

Best wishes, Mark

thanks anyway : )

hey jess!

i saw your chart, i think oyure a bit confused. a sign in a house doesnt necessarily mean you got that sign's planet in it as well. your 12th house starts at 6°26' capricorn, yet your saturn is in taurus in 27°50'... since your 4th house begins in taurus at 23°45', you need not to worry. your saturn is in the 4th house (which is also pretty pesky), not the 12th

as a matter of fact.. you dont have any planets in the 12th!! wooo! go you! :D

Hi, Luis,

I transcribed that description of Saturn in the 12th house from the book:

__Liquid Light of Sex: Kundalini, Astrology, and the Key Life Transitions__ by Barbara Hand Clow

Thanks, machine of clouds. I went to your profile page and read some of your posts. You express yourself very well! Don't worry....keep on doing it and you will naturally become more skilled!

Ah, the streets of Paris.....memories, memories................(from past lives....at least 3....when I lived in Paris....)!!!

its so cool this thread has been going on for 3 years so far.

saturn in the 12th people definitely HAVE A LOT to say.

ive 3 placements in my 12th, all of them conjunct each other and 2 of them (saturn incl) conjunct my asc, all at the same time.

im a master on the subject. ha.

thanks for the input. I have been that honest with myself,yes. But frankly there hasn't been much need to *try* since I have been right in the middle of circumstances that have required me to face my fears and do what I couldn't have imagined myself doing. and "...blessings and curses can be one and the same..." I second you on that one. The backbone of my chart is the 12th house (Pluto is there and Scorpio is my rising), that is where I am getting the competition from and that is also the place where I find the strength and the wisdom to deal with it.Only if I knew how to retain it :) or in other words, how to hold on.